Category: philosophy/religion topics
Hello All. This is sort of religious and sort of lets talk so I was not sure where to put it. I have been a homosexual since I was 13. All my friends said I was not but I swore up and down I was. I never believed in god even though I was raised in the church and turned away from anything reguarding him when I turned 18 and elft my mom's abusive household. Last year I lost my job and moved back with my mom and a few weeks ago I went to church because my grandma asked me to. Well I swear on my life I felt something move me there, I felt jesus in the room, and went home knowing my life had changed in that hour and a half more than it ever has. I now really feel there is more to life and I am missing out on the biggest part of it. I really ever since then want to become a christian and no longer want to be a homosexual because I know the bible says it is wrong. Has anyone ever been gay here and then became a christian later? To the christians is the god really that much of a forgiving god for my sins? I want to make the sstep of inviting him in to my life but feel he could never want me as a person and or forgive me for laying with another woman. Thanks a lot and I hope to get some helpful responses.
First, you did right to put this in religion topics. Had you put it in Let's talk, I'd have moved it here. this is the most appropriate, and also safest board for this, as I guarantee you, some will very strongly disagree with the things that are written here.
Enough with my Cl stuff, here's what I really want to say. I have never been homosexual, so I can't speak to that part. But I can speak to this. I know what you mean about feeling Jesus in a room almost tangibly, and I know the difference He can make in a very short amount of time. And I can also speak to the part about forgiveness.
Yes, God is a God of forgiveness. Christ's sacrifice on the cross covers all your sins, including the homosexuality. Think about it this way, and this is not meant as a criticism, because I have felt as you do now. But by saying that we're unforgivable, in a way, we belittle what Christ did for us, we're basically saying it wasn't and isn't enough. We're saying that our sin is bigger than He is, and that's not true.
I believe in Satan just as much as I believe in Christ. The Bible makes it clear he exists too, so with the belief in Christ also comes the belief in Satan, and spiritual warfare. There is truly a war going on for all souls. Satan does not want you to come to Christ. He wants you to believe that your sin is too big, that God would not want someone like you, that you can't be forgiven. All lies, as I said before, designed to keep you away from the love and forgiveness of God. Turn your back on those lies, if you choose to, and toward Christ, if you can. If God did not want you, He would not have allowed you to feel His presence so keenly, would not have touched your heart in such a strong way. The fact that He has shows that He is reaching out for you. Now it's your choice whether to reach back.
If you choose to try to repent of your homosexuality, He will help you, of that I'm sure. Again, it's not been a struggle I've faced, but He has helped me turn from some things. Others I am still in a contest of wills with Him on. LOL. Hope all that helps you somehow.
homosexuality isn't a sin; I know gay people who're Christian. just sayin'.
sister dawn thanks so much for this. It is hard because I feel my friends turning there backs like I am doing something offal because I want to become a christian or because I am not gay anymore. My grandma who has been a christian since she was 14 and is now 75 says to me god will bring new people in my life and that if these friends are doing this they are not true but it all seems so overwelming. I try to read the bible and have no clue where to start. I do that all the time tell myself that I can not be saved of my sin because it is to great. I even did that I can be gay and a christian as fighter of love and life says but it never felt right to me. I felt like I was lying to god and all the christian gay churches I went to enver even really went by the bible and how oculd they when it specific says that homosexual is a sin. Sorry I jsut feel so much pressure. I am hopig maybe I can find some literature on groups for christians who use to be homosexuals.
Jess,
Check out a website called "My word Like Fire". It's done by a man who lived as a homosexual and then became a Christian. Also, I wrote you privately, so I hope that helps.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11: it lists a whole bunch of types of people who will not inherit the kingdom of God, but then it says: "Such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified. You were justified..." So if Jesus could forgive the Corinthians for being thieves, drunkards, homosexuals, etc., he can forgive you in 2010.
Kate
Jess, here's one piece of advice. When reading the Bible, do not start with Genesis and try to read it in order. Many people do that, and then get lost in the legalism of the Old Testament. I'm not saying the OT is not important. It is, and I believe it to be the word of God, just as the New Testament is. But it's the NT that really applies to us today. If you choose this path, once you're farther along in it, you'll see how the two Testaments fit together, and how the prophecies made in the OT are answered and fulfilled by the events in the NT. I would personally start with things like the four Gospels, which talk about Christ himself. I would maybe also read some of John's letters, and Paul's. If you need help knowing what books are what, feel free to write me and ask, and I'll try to help.
the reason I think you're feeling as you are is because yes, the Bible does make it clear that homosexuality is against the will of God. I am living outside God's will in several ways myself right now, and am feeling the desire to get myself right with Him again. Not an easy thing, to be sure, but a better way by a longshot. I too can try to look for resources to help you with this, but I'm not real sure where to start looking, either. If I find any, I'll let you know.
As far as your friends, your Grandma is right, cliche as it sounds. If your friends can't respect the decision you are trying to make, then they are not true friends. Even if they do not agree with it, it is your choice, and your choice should be respected. I believe in giving my friends my opinion if they ask for it, and I'm not afraid to tell them I disagree, but in the end, I also believe in supporting them in their own decisions, and in not saying, "I told you so," if it proves the wrong one. I hope God does bring new and truer friends into your life.
Again, I stress, the thought that tells you that you cannot be saved is one, huge, lie. The Bible calls Satan the father of lies, and indeed he is. This is the most common one that can keep prospective Christians away. Pray against it. I am praying for you as well.
I can't really say anything more than what Alicia just said. She pretty much stole what I was gong to say here. lol But One thing I might add is that, if you want to come to Jesus Christ, do it now. Dn't procrastinate it. If you put it off, he could come for us for the rapture and leave you behind because you were never saved. So if you're going to make your decision, make it fast.
I totally agree with what everyone else has written here so yeah, keep going by being a Christian because I did a lot of stuff and I'm like Alicia, at times I feel like I'm screwing up as a Christian, but I know that I would be forgiven for it later.
It takes courage to take that step.
I'm not religious but
It's worth bearing in mind that we now have gay bishops, and vicars, and such like.
Being a christian doesn't mean you have to stop being who you are.
The Bible explicitly states that being gay is wron. Read it for yourself and maybe you'll see where we're coming from. It doesn't mean to curse gays, it just means that it is a sin.
yeah I keep hearing a lot about the rapture and am reading left behind right now. so you do think this rapture thing is the truth?
I don't just think it's the truth, it is the truth. In 1st Thessalonians chapter 5 verses 15 through 18, it says that the Lord will desend from heaven with the sound of a trumpet and all the dead will rise to meet the Lord in the air. We who are alive will follow after them.
the bible used to condone stoning people to death too, doesn't mean that it was or is ok to do so now.
And let's be clear here - homosexuality isn't something you choose, it's something you are born with. it's not like other sins such as murder and rape and theft etc where you have a choice whether to kill someone or steal from them, you don't choose to be attracted to people of the same sex as you.
And let's be realistic here, if you "repent" of your homosexuality, you're not going to go out and find a woman are you? because you're not attracted to women - you're attracted to men.
Homosexuality isn't a state of mind - it is a fact. But it seems that people still seem to think that it is ok to persicute homosexuals in the name of their beliefs.
People need to stop taking the bible quite so literally and perhaps consider that maybe, if there is a god, he made people differently and gave us the power to have tolerance and acceptance of other peoples' differences.
I agree with post fourteen. If a so called god can't accept you for who you are, and sins himself, because jealousy and envy is one of the seven deadly sins, and he says, "for I am a jealous god", hense sinful, I'm not sure he's really a god I want to be worshipping.
Here is the truth about the bible, and this is historically, documented, researchable truth, if you don't believe me, look it up in your local public library. Now, I don't expect many people to believe me, because people have a very hard time believing that the things they've been tought are wrong. The bible, as it is today, is not the word of god, it is a book. It is a book, written, voted on, and edited by men, not god, men. When I say men, I mean men, not women, no women took part in the editting of the bible. And yes, I mean editting, I mean that there are other gospils out there that say very different things from the bible.
Now, for my opinion on you being homosexual. If so many priests can fondle little boys, which is a homosexual act, and the pope says its ok, well who are we to say it isn't? Don't change who you are to fit the beliefs of others. I did it to myself, and it does not lead to happiness. It will lead you to a point where you no longer know yourself, where you are sick of trying to impress everyone, and eventually realize that all the changes you've made outwardly, have no taken root. You will still know who you are, you will still find women or men attractive, whatever your flavor is. That is a natural act, it is part of you and who you are. It doesn't make you more or less holy than someone else, and for someone to be bold enough to tell you that it is, is the worst and most loathsome sin of all. To tell someone, that something else they are doing is sinful, is despicable. Even if you do try to soft soap them by saying, "well I'm not perfect". So here's what I have to say to anyone who says your a sinner for being who you are, and by who you are I mean homosexual.
"I'm not perfect, and neither are you, there are things I don't like about myself, and things you don't like about yourself, but for you to have the gaul to tell someone else that they are sinful, makes you an ass. It means that your imperfections are so miniscule, that you think you have the right to look down on someone else for something that goes on in their lives. Who they choose to sleep with is none of your business, and if you truly believe in your so called word of god, you should judge not, lest ye be judged. Be not like the hypocrits who preach on the street corners. And that, you people that think this person is so sinful because of whom they find attractive, are preaching on street corners."
Fionally, saying that the new testament of the bible is better or more relavent than the old testament of the bible, is the most assinnine thing I've ever heard. The entire book of the bible is called the bible, not the new testament, and the old testament is a bunch of prophecies. You can't pick and choose things out of the old testament you like, and some things you don't, and still include it in the bible. Its all or nothing, either its all the word of god, or none of it is. God, as far as I know, doesn't stammer, and have a few times when he fell asleep, and the authors who were transcribing his word, kinda went crazy and just added a few things in. Everything, from the verse that says its ok to stone disobedient children to death, to the one that says its ok to sell your daughter into slavery, to the one that says love everyone, including homosexuals, to the one that says I am a jealous god and quick to anger, to the one that says he is slow to anger. Thus, the bible is a crock of lying shit that has been corrupted for so many different causes, that its unreadable anymore.
My advice to you, the orriginal poster, and anyone else, is start reading other things besides the bible, and stop listening to a bunch of preachers who woke up one day and decided to become preachers. That is how you get people who blow themselves up in the name of god, and no, I don't mean muslims, christians have done it too.
thank you to the last poster; you stated so eloquently exactly what I feel. you're exactly right.
thank you, Silver Lightning.
Or perhaps we should give everyone the freedom to believe what it is that they want to believe without judging them for it. I do not think Sister Dawn was saying that the Old Testament was any less relevant than the New Testament. I think she was just simply trying to say that it is a bit easier to read and understand. If someone actually wants to read the Bible and believe what it says, then who are you to tell them that they should not when it is their choice to make and not yours?
I never said, don't read the bible. I said, you can't take some of the bible and say its the word of god, and take other parts and say its not, when the other parts don't fit your dogma. It doesn't work like that. I also said to do more than read the bible. I think everyone should read the bible, especially atheists. How else will you know if you don't agree with christianity?
Definitely. I actually find a lot of the topics really fascinating. I don't agree with it, but it's still quite interesting. the "Left Behind" series is one of my favorites, even though I don't believe a word of it.
"If someone actually wants to read the Bible and believe what it says, then who are you to tell them that they should not when it is their choice
to make and not yours?" I think that when those beliefs impact on the lives and perceived freedoms of others then it is fair enough to question the validity of those beliefs.
as I said before, people do not choose to be homosexual, they are born that way.
So how do you think it must feel if you're gay, to have other people telling you that it's wrong for you to be like that, even though that's not a conscious choice on your part?
Is it any wonder that people still struggle with admitting their sexuality when attitudes like this prevale?
And just to throw another idea into the mix, have people ever considered that God might have had a rethink? After all, the bible was written some thousands of years ago, if God didn't want people to be homosexual, would he have given people the power to change legislation in order to accommodate it?
Okay, well I think it is just as bad for someone who is not a Christian to tell someone who wants to be a Christian that they should not believe in the Bible just as much as it is wrong for someone who is a Christian to hammer their faith into someone who does not want to believe in it. If someone who is gay wants to read and believe in the Bible, then I believe they should be free to make this choice for themselves. Perhaps one’s sexuality is not a choice, but choosing to believe in God is a choice that everyone should be free to make for themselves.
I don't remember anybody saying we shouldn't read the bible. However, I have to agree with Sugar baby that it's difficult for people to admit their sexuality if they are told it's wrong, because the bible says so. I'm not trying to be mean here, but that would be like if someone told someone not to eat a certain type of food, because a particular science book said you shouldn't. If you choose to live by the word of the bible, that's totally up to you, and you're free to make your own decisions, but to tell someone else that homosexuality is wrong? I'm not saying you're trying to imply that you as a person believe that, but the original poster was asking a question, and by the sound of things, she's having a bit of an inner struggle with the answer.
Well God loves all reguardless of there flaws, shortcommings, and/or sins, whether they or gay or not He still loves them that's not a question, and Jess as far as your situation goes, it seems like God made a major impact on you and that's awesome, I'm here if you want to talk, and as for the others, as far as the Bible goes it is true that reading the New Testament before the Old Testament will make things a lot more understandable, and it's not to say that the New and Old Testaments have less of a meaning, or have more or less validity. However, the difference between the New and Old Testaments is that the Old Testament was written before the Birth, Death, and Ressurection, and the New Testament takes place around the time of the ressurection and after, so some of the major things had changed within that time. The major thing is no matter who you are God loves you, however, He also considders sin a sin reguardless of what it is, but as I formerly stated, whether you sin or not God knows because we all do and He loves us all the same.
Ok, let me be a bit clearer on what I mean. If you want to read the bible, and only the bible, and nothing but the bible, and believe the bible, and only the bible, and nothing but the bible, that is your choice, and honestly you are probably so deeply dug into your dogma, that it would be pointless to even attempt to convince you that there might possibly be a flaw in the faith. However, for someone who is not yet so deeply entrenched, and have not buried their hand quite so far into the sand, because honestly, that's all religion is, like it or not, then I say the following, and read carefully, so there will be absolutely no confusion about what I'm trying to say here.
There are other things besides the bible to read that deal with christianity. Read some of the gospils that were not included in the bible, find out why they decided to include those books and exclude the others, find out the history of christianity, find out that, though it is one of the younger religions, its leaders have commanded more people killed, in the name of a god that supposedly promotes peace, find out about the crusades, the spanish inquizzition, the british wars over religion. Read about why there are so many versions of the same book. For the word of god, people really can't agree on what exactly it is he's trying to say. Oh, and just to stop the argument, no, none of the major versions were written to make the bible easier to understand. For example, the king james version of the bible, was written because the catholic church wouldn't let king henry the fifth of england divorce his wife to marry his girlfriend. He got pissed, so he wrote his own bible, in english, to undedrcut the catholic church, and its full of his interpretations of what it should say.
I could go on for days about what you should read before choosing to throw your lot in with christianity, or any other religion, including atheism, or darwinism. To sum up, I'm saying only this, before you decide to change your life for this god, make sure you actually know what the god you believe in is. And there is nothing to say that the bible is the definition of god. If you think god can accept you being homosexual, and you believe that, it is just as valid as the beliefs of others that say he can't. Don't let someone else judge for you whether your actions or beliefs are wrong, don't let me, and don't let anyone else, no matter how wise or close to you they may be. You are the one who has to live the life, and you are the one who will be stuck with the decision, so make it for yourself, not to pander to the wishes of anyone else.
Now, for any of you who are confused or angry about what I just said, read it again.
no-one ever said that christians shouldn't believe in the bible. Read it, believe in it, feel empowered by it - whatever makes you happy.
But just remember that what you believe may well have an impact on someone else.
Me saying to a gay person who has found god that "no, being gay is IMO not wrong, you should be free to be what you want to be as all people are equal, the bible was written thousands of years ago and you might want to think before taking it all literally," is not going to impact on their life in the same way as the christian saying "yes, being gay is a sin, but if you repent then God will forgive you."
People might want to think about that before taking the bible quite so literally and imparting that on someone who is clearly having conflicts between their sexuality and their new-found faith.
I personally believe only in the bible. That's my conviction.
Jess, I@m so so pleased for you that god touched you. No, I have never been gay but I lost faith in all men before I became a christian .I thought they either abuse or leave you. Tony's right: God loves you regardless. However once he touches you he'll help you overcome the things that he doesn't disagree with. But he loves the sinner, he just removes the sin. The word says we all fall short of the glory of god, and your sins certainly aren't too great. Jesus paid for it all. You got me on twitter, so if you want to talk to me about it, and if you want me to pray for certain things, feel free to DM me!!
just to clarify, atheism isn't a religion; it's lack thereof.
I actually like these arguments. They aren't anything at all to take personal, so Jess, don't let them fool you. I think the thing I disliked was the fact that someone said that the Bible is not the word of God. Ok, so you don't believe that it's the word of God, that's fine, but please don't tell others to believe that. I respect Atheism just as much as I respect Buddhists, Hinduists, Muslims, etc., but I don't like when people try to make us believe that the Bible is not the word of God. You know why those researchers say that the Bible isn't the Word of God? It's because they themselves have never believed in such a God and think they're smart enough to develop something else. I'm not trying to sound harsh or anything like that, and like I said, I respect Atheism and those other religions, but at the same time, I believe what I believe, and nobody's going to change it. I am a Christian and I plan to live the rest of my life as a Christian.
I wasn't sure whether I should post here, since I'm not a Christian, but I was inspired by several posts here. SugarBaby, I'm so happy that you brought up choice versus biology in post 14. I'm not saying that there aren't people out there who experiment and who eventually discover that they're not really homosexual but the same thing could be said for some who try heterosexuality. If someone truly is one way or the other and not bi, they can't simply choose to be with the other sex/gender and honestly feel comfortable. No matter what they do, they'll only be denying themselves and making things worse, instead of possibly finding someone who could love and care for them.
SilverLightning, post 15 was full of historical accuracy, though I must say you were extremely harsh in calling The Bible "a crock of lying shit". I hardly see how anyone who's truly struggling with this question could remain calm after reading that. In any case, most Christians are only taught the parts of their sacred texts that their particular denomination deems acceptible. I too have seen things on the Gnostic texts, the Apokrifa etc. and they are different from The Bible. Even the Gospals of The Bible itself have controdictions within them and one, John I believe, was written so far after the death of Christ that it's possible that the author didn't even know him.
There's a big difference between fondling little boys, or anyone underage for that matter, and in being an adult with another adult in a concenting relationship/encounter. That said, I do see your point. If The Pope can allow such attrocities, and I think all of us will agree that these are wrong, then there shouldn't be a problem with adults who honestly love each other being together. My parents are lesbians but I'm not. True, I was adopted and the woman whom I call Mom is technically my aunt, but I've never felt any desire to be with a woman even though she's been with her partner for 21 years and it was certainly never forced or even encouraged on me. There are also many other cases wherein those raised by homosexuals remain heterosexuals. So the idea of becoming gay because of parentage, unless it's based in biology, is a false one. As has been said, there are many Christians who are homosexuals and many who are tolerant. My grandmother wasn't too thrilled in Mom's younger days that she was a lesbian but she now sees the great love that my parents have for each other and accepts it.
It is my opinion that people should be left to believe as they wish. But when they try to force others to blindly follow their faith or their version of a religion and to not ask questions, there is a major problem. Saying that something is wrong and closing the book on the subject is not a satisfactory answer and neither is appealing to authority, in this case, a single book with no other outside sources. In Hellenic Polytheism, it is believed that wisdom is one of the greatest gifts that The Gods could have given us and we are encouraged to ask questions and to learn from each other. Many of us use our sacred texts as guides rather than viewing them as absolute truths. It could be different within Christianity, and I respect this fact. But surely, you must believe that God gave wisdom to humanity, and if so, wouldn't it make sense that He would want humans to use it and to explore the various possibilities of life? I find that when I'm doing something wrong, The Gods give me signs and have Their own ways of letting me know when They're not pleased. Perhaps, it's best to take everything you hear with a little grain of salt and to look in your heart for the answers. Go with what truly feels right, add a little logic and you won't go wrong.
As for some of the other books of Christianity, try
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/index.htm
They also have a few different versions of The Bible and some Jewish texts on there. Some of these translations are old and may be a bit difficult to read but they're a good start. SilverLightning, Post 25 was beautifully written and contained some very good advice. Jess, I too would recommend reading up on the history of Christianity so that you could form your own opinion, whether positive or negative, on the religion. But also remember that people are people and the divine is the divine. So what people did in the name of Jesus may not have been what he would have wanted at all. I'm sure that his words have been twisted around many times to suit those using them. To fighter of love, Atheism is not lack of a religion. It's lack of a deity in one's faith. There are religious people who are atheists. Some schools of buddhism fall into this category. illumination, I don't think that anyone's telling you to not be a Christian. But there is plenty of historical evidence that shows that The Bible has been edited and changed. Here's an article from Wikipedia on the Biblical Canon. course, if this source is doubted, there are many other texts which can be used to support the idea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon
So even if these are, in fact, the words of God, man has undoubtedly used them to his own advantage.
To the original poster, I can't say anything that hasn't been said by SisterDawn, Michael and others.
To SilverLightning:
Your sentiments are understandable, however some of your history is off:
First, you are right about the King James Bible being a political move, but here's the real story:
The king you speak of, King Henry with all the wives, was two generations before King James I. You're right, it was all because of his need or want to avoid another War of the Roses / produce a male heir to the throne. However, King Henry had no intention of producing the Bible in the native tongue. In fact, during his time, Thomas More was burning Bible translators left and right. A man by the name of Tyndale, who by my sparse research anyway, seems to still have followers / a publishing infrastructure still producing Bibles in native tongues, fled England to avoid being burned.
You are right to say that religion has been used to excuse all sorts of behavior, whether we're talking about the Chinese takeover of Japan in the 13th and 14th centuries, the witch burnings in India during the 1600s, the Crusades in Europe, the decimation of populations n the North American continent, and the list goes on.
Know why? Because there are two means by which political infrastructures motivate people: religion, and economic / political security. Both are close to the hearts of the masses, who are looking for simple answers.
Consider Pul Pott, Stalin, General Mau, and many other nonreligious leaders in the twentieth century who, due to technological improvements, in the span of a hundred years were capable of decimating populations that equaled much of what religious zealots have decimated.
How could they? A promise of peace, land and Bread, the three-cornered promise of the Bolchivics of Russia during the 1920s.
How could the religious people perform their decimations? Because the masses are equally controllable via a priest as they are by a bread line. You think the masses of Egyptian artisans and slaves would have built those pyramids just because? No, they believed in their religion and the religion was used to maintain a solid and disciplined workforce which maintained a comfortable lifestyle for the elite. The concept, very pre-Christian, is called hydraulic despotism.
Christianity, because it became a world-power-backed religion in the latter part of Rome's empire, simply inherited the long-standing tradition of what you could call "heathen" or "pagan" practices informally referred to as a form of hydraulic despotism: 90% of Europe's population was living on the edge of starvation all through the thousand-year time period between 4 or 500 AD through the Renaissance / rise of a middle class.
Said practices are in effect today by the Christian Right in America and probably elsewhere: namely funded by a political elite and providing religious reasons for otherwise political problems / answers. And when the masses don't get what they need, it's either God or the Devil, or the Evil Other side. Or now, maybe it's a "higher purpose." In either case, I'm taking it old school: it's just an excuse for deplorable behavior is what it is.
Now that I've delivered somewhat of a smackdown to a religious response:
The reason atheist or at least nonreligious leaders can perform the same acts of terror is simply their appeal: to immediate security, the three corners; peace, land and bread. These three corners were offered / extolled to the North Koreans and you don't seem them living either in peace, having much land, or getting much bread, unless you count the grass they're encouraged to eat while their government elite is entertained by WWE wrestlers.
So perhaps before blaming violence entirely on faiths, one should put it where it belongs: on the instigators of said violence. You can use the same rope to hang someone with, or rescue someone from falling down a well. Nobody supports the banning of ropes.
Ironically, the same Christians that may have gotten upset at SilverLightning have delivered the same reaction to the Muslims, many times.
As to the inconsistencies in the bible? There is a lot I don't know, and frankly unless you are a real moral relativist, stoning or burning someone of any kind anyplace any time at all is inexcusably deplorable under any circumstances. The victim can take up to half an hour to die from stoning, up to several hours from burning.
But I think conversion to a faith is like many other forms of assent to something: obviously deeper / internal, but what I mean is, some of you say that any of us converts should support every slice, every piece of the Bible as translated now or whatever, but the reality is there's nothing in life you just take that way. You always try in life to sort out the missing pieces, but that doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater.
On the gay thing, well I personally have a lot of questions as to why that would be considered 'wrong' save the normal social devient responses typical of primitive cultures, but I wouldn't stand in someone's way of seeking assistance for either acceptance or modification of it. And frankly I think Post 1 shows a lot of courage. I'll admit this now, when I converted I was too embarrassed to raise my hand in the crowd. Had I been able to see, I would have popped open an eye to see if others around were doing it, so I wouldn't be the only one.
I would never have had the guts to post to a public forum announcing it, especially in light of your particular situation.
I will say this, though: you said you came out of an abusive situation, and I understand quite well how abuse / religion get confused / it's easy to write off the entire package. It takes a really long time to undo the misperceptions within yourself / sort out which is which: I've been a convert since the latter part of 1997 and I'm still puzzling over some of that: stuff many Christian people seem to take for granted. All I can say is just keep at it. It's a puzzle for sure, but despite what you see as the party line, I've found Christians come in pretty much any shape and size, they're not all of one political or social persuasion, where you end up feeling like the square peg in the round hole.
The last poster made a very good point, one of many that've been playing on my mind since I first read this thread. Religion and spirituality are not simple things. If you feel a compultion towards a certain religion, whether it be Jesus, the goddess, or Buddha, that's excelent, and if you feel devoted and like you want to embrace a new found faith, that's terrific! But I'd encourage anyone going through something like this to spend some serious time thinking about what exactly it means to them. One night, one week, or sometimes even one month won't cut it. Many people do spend years grappling with their beliefs, and don't get too much figured out. Also, it's very important as one person said to look within instead of without. It's all well and good wanting to please other people, especially people in your family, but make sure to balance that with what works for you personally. I think most of us have learned at some point in our lives that as much as we love someone, we sometimes have to go against what they say for our own mental, emotional, and possibly even physical well-being. So to apply it here, you say you don't want to be gay because the Bible forbids it. That's all well and good, but the question still remains. Are you gay?
hey
well I went to shift a group at my church on fri night and excepted jesus in to my life. I feel forgiven and so freed of a weight that was on my shoulders. I also checked in to exodus international and am waiting on my packet to come. Thanks for everyones input even the people who are not christian. I enjoy reading different peoples views. One thing I will say is that I now know if I did not before that homosexuality is a choice.
Okay. consider this: Sure, it's difficult to argue that you're born homosexual, or you're born heterosexual, but can you choose your sexuality the way you choose which store to go into first in the mall? if you don't like olives, you don't like olives. No amount of eating them is going to make you like them, unless of course your taste buds change. if you like pizza, can you just turn off your liking for it? Just say, "No. I've decided I don't like pizza anymore?". You can choose not to eat it anymore, but that doesn't mean you don't like it.
I know the analygy is a bit off, but the bigger things in life, such as sexuality, whether or not you like a certain kind of food, or whether or not you like a certain animal are things you choose based on your preferences. Suppose your favorite, non fictional book told you it was wrong to like cats, does that mean you're not going to like cats anymore? Most likely not.
I'm so happy for you and I really wish you the best of everything. It's truly wonderful to find a faith where you could be yourself and where you could find contentment.
Congratulations, Jess. I'm glad we could be of help to you. Just read your Bible as often as you can and pray. That's how the Lord works.
sorry to be the spoil sport here, but I wouldn't call Cody's post harsh at all. if you can't handle what's said, don't read it.
Well, if you don't like how we reply to posts like that, don't read it either. We have our eliefs and you have yours. We have just as much of a right to disagree with you guys as much as you have a right to disagree with us.
Sorry, I just realized one of my sentences didn't make sense. lol We have just as much of a right to disagree with you guys as you have to disagree with us. You can't make statements like that and not expect a reply.
I'm going to divert the discussion off-topic, and I'm not intending to ask this to appear like a jerk or a smart-ass, but since both sides have just recently used this particular defense, I need a bit of clarification. How are you supposed to know if you like or dislike what somebody says without reading it? I admit I'm ignorant of many many things on this earth, and this well may be one of these. Would you not kind of have to read something, least a bit of it, before you decided if you liked what is said? I don't trust just skipping over a post based on who said it, because somebody who I might disagree with here might make a good point on another topic. Reminds me of my days when I was very outspoken about my fiery passionate hatred of e-mail forwards and chain letters. See, those who thought chain letters were harmless things would advise me not to read them if I disliked them, and I thought that was silly then, too.
OK, could you guys actually mean, if you don't like what somebody says, don't respond to it? Now, that makes more sense, but I actually don't like that one either because it discourages disagreement, and how in tarnation can you have a healthy debate/argument/whatever without disagreement? Does each side only want to hear comments defending their point of view? *scratches head*
I agree with you, and I will admit, there are misconceptions on both sides of the coin. But there are also some true statements. If you want to disagree with them, that's fine, and if you want to think someone is too harsh for bringing them up, that's completely up to you, but your argument won't get too far that way.
For all those who might get an impression that all Christians believe homosexuality is inherently corrupt, unnatural, etc. from this board, and for anyone who does indeed believe that, I encourage you to read Bishop Gene Robinson's autobiography: "In The Eye of The Storm: Swpet To The Center By God."
There are also several pertinent interviews with him on YouTube.
Just some food for thought, so to speak.
Correction; it is:
In the Eye of the Storm: Swept to the Center by God"
Godzilla, that was exactly the point I was trying to make. How can you not skip a long post like, for example, Cody's post, without getting some kind of reaction? And my second question is, I don't call Atheism a crock of shit, so why would you call the Bible a crock of shit? This is where I come in and say that you can believe what you want to believe, but respect other people for what they believe. This is a chat line, folks, and there are different people with different beliefs on here, and that's what makes this place interesting. I have as much of a right to believe in God as you guys do to be an Atheist, Buddhist, Hinduist, etc. So state your arguments, yes, but be careful what you say in those arguments.
the bible is not a crock of shit, but it was also written at a time when many things that today's society considers normal were simply unspoken back then, homosexuality being one of them.
OceanDream, I disagree. If homosexuality weren't being practiced or discussed, then why would it be in the Bible at all? Wouldn't its "taboo" nature make it undiscussable?
Also, if society (people) dictates what is right or wrong, then it's up to individual interpretation. Who's to say cannibalism is wrong (based on your logic)?
Jessica, the Bible talks about us today as well. You'll notice, especially in the new testament, where it talks about the last days. That does include today, and it means that homosexuality is wrong.
It talks about us today, but it wasn't written today.
To Tim21 and Michael I will say this:
I hope you both realize how useful it is when information / data are put forth. Many of us, myself included, are troubled by many of these very things which sometimes are just thrown around as talking points for people wanting to debate. However, your responses have at the least helped me. I am by nature a puzzle solver, perhaps not just an engineeer by occupation, and am always glad to see how the parts fit.
So, thanks guys.
I just have one question, and it was sparked by what tif said earlier, and is directed to the orriginal poster. Do you, in your new found faith and new found acceptance of jesus, feel like you are being true to yourself, or true to how others have told you you should be? Do you feel you are being the person you are made to be, and being the best person you were made to be, or do you feel you are being told that some part of you is wrong and should be changed?
It is the answer to that question that truly matters, and what you do with the answer. If you decide to change something about yourself because your preacher tells you to, or your grandma, or santa, or the ice cream man, or anyone else, are you being true to yourself, or are you simply pandering? So it comes down to this, do you feel that ignoring your homosexuality, completely denying it exists, and treating something that has felt right to you for some period of time, as though it were wrong and sinful is right? Or do you think you should be happy with who you are, and not listen to your preacher, or your grandmother, or santa, or me, or anyone else in this entire world? do you feel you should be who you think you should be, or who everyone else thinks you should be? That is the question you have to ask yourself. Not whether christianity is right or wrong, false or true, or whether god exists or not, that doesn't matter either way. What matters is that you are happy in your own skin. Because at the end of the day, when your lying in your bed, and its dark and silent, the only person your going to be with, is yourself, and if your not true to yourself, your going to be miserable. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but one day you will be miserable. So stop thinking of whether this book or that book says it is wrong, stop thinking of if your preacher or jesus or ronald regan say it is wrong. Think about what you think is wrong, and if being homosexual is what feels wrong to you, because of you, then change it. If not, I say leave it alone, but it is up to you.
Hope that you understood that, and hope it helps. Sorry to take your board and make it into a christians versus atheists dodge ball match.
I have always wondered what 'be true to yourself' actually even means, personally.
And Christians use the word as often as atheists.
But what, in fact, is self? I've changed so much over the years due to circumstances and life and things I've found out, one could argue I wasn't true to myself if self is some rigid form. I was once a professional musician, maybe not as good as some of you, but I did it professionally. There was a time I really felt I needed to play music on a daily basis: in fact in college, a day without playing the keys just felt wrong.
I don't even own a piano anymore, I do other things, it just sorta faded I guess. I have taken a real load of criticism from some people I knew who claimed I'm not true to myself. Part of 'myself', if you call it that, is that I can't stand it when I suck. I couldn't take five hours a day to bring back my chops even if I wanted to; I've got too much else on the plate. But as 'myself', I'm dissatisfied with playing when I know I don't sound as good as I have, or better.
And, for the record, these weren't pronounced atheists, at least one was quite fundamental, I wouldn't say to stoning proportions but pretty far out there.
If you read Shakespeare's Hamlet, from which "To thine own self be true" is often quoted, the paragraph from Polonius's speech basically means don't lie to yourself about who you really are. Meaning for me at least, I'll never come off as some virtuoso piano player, because it simply isn't, and wasn't the case. Reasonably good, sure, at one point, but nothing special when one pragmatically looks at what's available.
I have just found the statements 'be yourself,' 'find yourself,' or 'be true to yourself' (except in Polonius's speech) sort of nebulous, and usually more the work of religious / psychology people than the atheists I know. Maybe it's just me.
Jessica, just because it wasn't written today doesn't mean that it doesn't apply to us today. There are a lot of places in the Bible where it says that God doesn't change.
Cody, your last post was a very great point I forgot to bring up. thanks.
Michael, by your logic of the Bible being ok to apply to today's times, we could use the same logic to say research done 50 years ago is ok to use. not true, at all.
My thoughts exactly, Chelsea.
Silver Lightning, thank you for bringing up another good point, once again.
Chelsea and Jessica, you're missing the point. This is not a book about research, this is the Bible. I said on my previous post that there are a lot of places where it says God doesn't change.
we aren't missing the point, but simply trying to show you how ridiculous you sound when saying something like that.
So I sound ridiculous because I'm quoting from the Bible? I'm sorry, but I won't buy that.
Basically here's my take on where all this stuff fits, probably wouldn't make any individual fully satisfied ... but ...
Science provides the explanations for how the universe works, engineering and medicine provide solutions for people, and religions / spirituality provide answers to questions of who are we, why are we here, and similar - what people call existential or whatever.
The reality is that accuracy of measurements and data didn't exist as a concept for millennia, until what we call the Age of Reason, when science really took off in the Western world.
I think it's dangerous to hybridize spirituality and the sciences, whether you call alchemy a science, or insist that the world came to be in six days and the human genome project was an abomination.
I think the problem comes into play when it's hybridized.
I think that what they're trying to say is that people and religions change over time. We were actually just having this discussion at one of the religious groups of which I am a member. I think they were right to point out that The Gods don't expect us to worship Them in the same ways that the ancients did and that They show Themselves in different ways to different people, but that last bit is somewhat offtopic. It can't be denied that Christianity has changed over time. For one thing, The Bible itself is very accessible to most people. It used to be that only priests were allowed and even able to read it. There are things which The Bible permits which are against the law or which would seem strange to modern people. You don't, I assume, dress in the clothing of biblical times or speak the languages that they spoke. Even if you do, I'm sure you don't use it with most people. Most Christian women work today, something which was almost unheard of when The Bible was written. They get divorces and are not owned by their husbands. I'm sure that most Christians today would disagree if a man abused his wife and said that he should be allowed to do this. Likewise, people aren't married off as children and against their will. Even eating sweets, drinking alcohol and gambling are done by many Christians today, though the Puritans didn't approve of this in their time. So people and religion change. I can't say whether my Gods or your God does but it's always a possibility, and even if that's not the case, I'm sure that They/He understand/s the progress of humanity.
no, Michael, you sound ridiculous when you say things like, "the bible wasn't written today, but it can still be applied to today's times".
as for why that's ridiculous: as I said in an earlier response, by that logic, it's ok to use research of any kind from 50 years ago. ummm, not the case.
to the original poster of the topic, has it occured to you that there are indeed churches that are accepting of homosexuality? I have several acquaintances that are members of them.
Leo, you're right on that one, science does explain some things. Back in the 1600's, when Galileo discovered that the moon had craters, the Catholic church got mad at him because the Bible said that everything was made perfect. It was only recently that they forgave him for that; I think that was about 35 years ago. So I think that's one thing to watch out for as well, that Science does have proof that some things that happened on earth and space are true. Not all things, of course, but there are a lot of things covered, such as those crters discovered on the moon.
Well, it can be applied to today's times, Chelsea, whether that sounds ridiculous to you or not. Come on, guys. If the Bible is considered the word of God and if people still read it, why in the world would you think that it doesn't apply to today? I think that statement is ridiculous, honestly. No, the stoning and all that doesn't apply to today, that was almost 2000 years ago when they justified that. And by the way, that wasn't meant for abuse, that was their form of punishment back then because they obviously didn't have guns and all that.. That was also what the cross was all about. That was their form of execution. I think what should be obvious to all of you here is that the Bible clearly states that this stoning and all that was punishment, not abuse. But what applies to us today is making sure that we acknowledge the Lord. I think that some of you guys are taking this out of context, and the stoning was a perfect examle of that. Of course we stone people like we used to.
And one more point. When Isaac went up to kill his son, that was meant for an offering in those days. Today, of course, if we took someone up into the mountains to kill someone because God told us to, people would think we were out of our minds. So that, of course, doesn't apply to us. But folks, the Bible in general does apply to us today, whether it sounds ridiculous or not. And apologies if my point wasn't so clear in the previous posts.
fighter of love and life: Why can't The Bible, or any ancient religious text for that matter, be read and believed in today? Not everything in it is foreign and outdated. If we can't use research of any kind from 50 years ago, we might as well give up records, radio, television, washers/dryers, refrigerators, certain medical aids, electricity and also all of the scientific discoveries made in the past, whether or not they involve technology. Those things were all invented or discovered with research done more than 50 years ago.
it's obvious we'll never see eye to eye on this, so let's just agree to disagree.
Ileni, I couldn't have said that better myself.
Thanks. *smile* And especially for remembering to call me Eleni. Why throw out the baby with the bath water so to speak?
Much of the bible wasn't meant to be taken literally. I'm no expert, but I at least know that.
Sure, the Bible does tell stories, and Isaac's offering, which I talked about previously, is a perfect example of that. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to take the Bible literally because there are parts of the Bible that apply to today. And that's what I've been trying to get across to you guys. There are even some books in the Bible that focus on what's going to happen in the future.
Ah, science vs religion. I always saw that as kind of a one-sided battle. Well, mostly. Let me tell you what I'm talking about.
Some of you might remember the little Christian fish symbol bumper sticker, then the Darwinian parody of it with the Darwin fish swallowing the Jesus fish. After that, there was an even bigger Jesus fish swallowing the Darwin fish, swallowing the Jesus fish! Good grief! I guess the Darwinians finally gave up that one for the safety of all drivers everywhere. Maybe they figured people would concentrate too hard on that weird "Oh yeah? Back at you!" argument and crash. Whatever, I could go on like that all day, but what am I rambling about? I'll tell you. Except for that one example, over and over again you'll see religion getting mad at science if it trods a little too close to whatever is believed. Ever stop to wonder why science doesn't return the sentiment? Me, I'm a disciple of science, totally and completely. And from what I've experienced, sience doesn't care what the religious among us choose to believe. What does it matter? It is based on logic and reason, based on what is real. And get this, it doesn't have to rule through fear, yet its influence is apparent, and even strong enough to anger some of the "devout believers" if you want to use that term.
Anyway, so much for that.
Ah, science vs religion. I always saw that as kind of a one-sided battle. Well, mostly. Let me tell you what I'm talking about.
Some of you might remember the little Christian fish symbol bumper sticker, then the Darwinian parody of it with the Darwin fish swallowing the Jesus fish. After that, there was an even bigger Jesus fish swallowing the Darwin fish, swallowing the Jesus fish! Good grief! I guess the Darwinians finally gave up that one for the safety of all drivers everywhere. Maybe they figured people would concentrate too hard on that weird "Oh yeah? Back at you!" argument and crash. Whatever, I could go on like that all day, but what am I rambling about? I'll tell you. Except for that one example, over and over again you'll see religion getting mad at science if it trods a little too close to whatever is believed. Ever stop to wonder why science doesn't return the sentiment? Me, I'm a disciple of science, totally and completely. And from what I've experienced, sience doesn't care what the religious among us choose to believe. What does it matter? It is based on logic and reason, based on what is real. And get this, it doesn't have to rule through fear, yet its influence is apparent, and even strong enough to anger some of the "devout believers" if you want to use that term.
Anyway, so much for that.
stories are just that, stories. just cause something is repeated a thousand times, doesn't mean it becomes true the more it's said. that's the point we're trying to get you to ssee.
I have three things to say about all this right now:
1) Please don't lump all of us Christians into the camp of people who buy the "Jesus junk" like those stupid fish, bumper stickers, wwjd bracelets, whatever. There are those of us who believe the Bible and choose to live by it, and that is OUR CHOICE, whether or not that's considered misguided by those who don't believe. If that makes us fanatics, so be it, but don't lump us Christians into the same boat as those who view their faith as a marketing tool.
2) How is it that this board became high-jacked so badly? Instead of ofering support, encouragement, and even a challenge to a particular individual, it's degenerated into a science vs. religion debate?
) Why is it that only atheists and agnostics are the ones who question the Bible and offer snarky remarks regarding it and the choice by faith of the individual poster (and others) to follow it and allow our lives to be changed, and those who have religions that are, frankly, diametrically opposed to the message of Christ (no offense) offering support and encouraging that path to be followed? Anyone see a dichotomy?
We have many viewpoints here on the Zone, which I love and which can be a wonderful thing, but I am dismayed that those who claim that following your heart is the ebst way to happiness are dissing that very practice when/if that involves Christ.
Awaiting the flying fur,
Kate
Nobody here, as far as I'm able to understand, is lumping all of you into those who market their religion, just that some people do. I just don't understand how you can just change your religious and sexual views just like that. We're asking: Is the original poster truly happy? If so, then congratulations. We're not saying not to believe in Jesus, and the bible, just that you should really think it through first. Are you doing it because it's truly what you want? Or because other people have told you that's the way it should be?
I echo what the last poster said.
I think the reason why this thread "degenerated" was because some of those who should be offering support have in fact stood up and said that yes, homosexuality is a sin and that the op should repent etc. What happened too acceptance and tolerance? (not their exact words obviously but ...)
And that was my whole point about arguing about how "ridicuous" I sounded when I quoted from the Bible. I'm a Christian who supports Jess for what she did and now we're turning this into a debate. I'm sure she wanted to get saved, so she did. I'm sure she doesn't plan to change her beliefs. Kate, I agree with you wholeheartedly on what you said. And don't misunderstand me, I am open to other people's beliefs, and I respect them just like I respect everyone else. However, when someone says that I sound ridiculous just because of my religion and what I believe, I consider that to be very disrespectful.
Remember that Jess was asking Christians what they thought, and whether we like it or not, there are various flavours of Christianity just as there are with most religions. Some openly accept homosexuals and some think it's a sin. So while I personally agree with the first group, it's still necessary to take these differences into account. I think the varying views can, in fact, be helpful, since they don't just present one side of the coin. What if, for example, we all said that Christianity is fine with homosexuality and she then met those who thought it was horrible? What if the reverse happened and she had no support and then came across a Christian who was more tolerant but had her mind set against the religion because of prior experiences? At least we're all able to express ourselves on here. But I agree that attacking the religion and The Bible itself does nothing. If we really wanted to debate it, we should find out why it is that certain people are against this and then use logical (not purely emotional) arguments with documents and facts to back them up in our efforts to disprove these beliefs. But as has been said, that was not the point of this thread, and sometimes, beliefs aren't strictly based on logic.
I find myself on the side of Kate and Michael here.
The original poster asked a question of a particular group: a. Christians, and b. those who believe homosexuality is wrong. While I belong to the first camp, I am puzzled by the second, and in fact provide friendly support to a long-lost grade school friend of mine now living with her wife in San Francisco, and they have a little girl. I want nothing but the best for them and their little girl.
That is why I initially did not respond to this particular thread.
I note though that those who talk about doing what makes you happy are extremely shortsighted: How can I know if working out, or changing jobs, or even working at home makes me happy? Not to begin with anyway. Don't I have to do it for awhile, and find out how it all works through ups and downs?
And that statement alone is quite nebulous, used by religious or nonreligious people alike.
And to be frank, surprising as this is, those of you who have lashed back have displayed the very fundamentalist characteristics which have separated me from others in my sphere: so married to the idea of something, so in need of debate, so completely absorbed in a cause you totally neglect the individual's decision and time to even process it, or the civility of public discourse.
So now today we see that atheism in the minds of a few at least, can be 'believed' fundamentally. One of you even used the word disciple and science in the same sentence! That is a logical impossibility for the truly scientifically inclined of course, as we aren't interested in converts, science simply explains the principles behind natural phenomena. The very civility and humanity of the atheists I know in real life, and I'd like I used to be as one of them, is what totally separated them from the ardently religious. I confess it left me empty on so many levels while my wife seemed to be thriving, but never have I seen a devout / fundamentalist atheist before. I guess now I have. Fundamentalism looks no prettier on the face of an atheist than it does on anybody else.
Leo, this is exactly what I was thinking when I replied to these posts. I have not seen a fundamental Atheist either, so this is the first time I've seen it.
Rather, this is the first time I've seen one.
if speaking my mind makes me a fundamentalest atheist, so be it.
secondly, while the poster did indeed ask her question specifically of christians, everyone is entitled to share their thoughts.
from the sounds of things, the original poster hasn't thought this out herself; that's the point I and others are trying to make.
I have a major problem when someone has been told something, and instead of thinking it through for themselves, they choose to automatically believe it cause it sounds good, or any other reason.
But how do you know she hasn't thought it out herself, Chelsea? If she accepted Jesus into her heart, wouldn't you think that she thought it out and she was ready to take that step?
I was merely presenting another side of the argument. She asked if homosexuality was wrong based on christan ethics. I presented the side that it doesn't matter, that she should be who she is, no matter what others think.
As for fundamentalist atheists, atheism doesn't have any fundamental beliefs save for the belief that there is not a higher power, and if you don't believe that, your not an atheist. So, all atheists are fundamentalist atheists.
thank you Cody; I couldn't have said it better myself.
Michael, I obviously don't think that; if I did, I wouldn't have said what I did.
she seems to simply be going off of what others have told her; to make a point, I didn't just wake up one day and say, "I think I'll be an atheist". it's something I (and others, I'm sure) struggled with for a long time.
And I can't speak for her, but you think anyone who becomes a Christian hasn't spent years puzzling over things before at some point arriving at the conclusion? Yes, Christianity and other religions have a point of conversion, but all I, or you, saw here was the end point. Had some of you all seen it had I dared to post somewhere when I first converted, you may have thought the same because in a sentence or two, I would come off as 'going along with what my wife was doing', or something similar.
However, in reality, there was lots of static for months and years internally and externally beforehand. And though I used the term endpoint I believe that's wrong, because in fact it's just the beginning; one then proceeds to explore the new terrain.
The preachers and priests and stuff talk about the 'moment' probably because they're responsible for a lot of them, I suppose, but in reality time passes, things happen, and ultimately you make one decision over another because for many, things aren't working out real well the way you're doing it at the time. And I can say from experience it's no puffing priest or arhythmical thumping accompanied by high-volume thesbianic southern drawl ... no in fact a change like this comes from within.
Perhaps being 'who we are' (I still come up short on that one), would include making whatever changes we make.
I think there's a lot of misperception about this whole thing, and I'm far from the one to really put it into words, but I think it's far more a process than a single event. But processes of all types are often made up of events.
Evolution is made up, not of a slow crawl, but a series of leaps and jerks. This is true in the natural world, in industrialization (thermodynamics, Moore's Law, agriculture, etc.) so perhaps it's true for personal spiritual development as well. Who we are is constantly changing.
As I read over all the posts on this thread, I am left to wonder if the freedom to make an individual choice is somehow dead. I do not see anyone on here trying to persuade those of you who do not believe in God that you should believe in God, so if someone makes a choice to believe in God, then you should at least have the decency to respect that individual’s choice. The last time I checked, we live in a free country, which means that people should be able to make their own choices when it comes to religion regardless of what other people may think about the choices they choose to make. As it is said, let he without sin cast the first stone.
Have any of us said we don't respect her decision? Not that I'm aware of. We're simply asking if she thought it through first, and if she did, then congratulations on your decision, and may your life be filled with happiness. Just as Christians vary in their beliefs, so do atheists. Some atheists have a problem with all Christians, and I have no time for that, just as I have no time for those who say that atheism is wrong, or that something is just...wrong, in general, but as long as your are comfortable in your beliefs, and you don't feel the need to shove it into our faces, I respect that whole heartedly, and feel no need to say anything against that.
And I hope that Jessica and Chelsea both know that I'm not shoving anything in their faces either. And honestly, I think that all of us, and I mean all of us, should stop posting here, because she's moved on from this board post a long time ago, and it has degenerated into a Science versus religion board topic, which I think is pretty darn sad.
Jessica, I completely agree with your last post; thank you.
man, it's amazing how some people get bent out of shape so easily, and assume we're saying something we aren't. wow, just wow.
I must admit that I went over the top when I said that this has degenerated in to a science versus religion topic, but I still stand by what I said when Imentioned that this board topic has degenerated.
O, it has, definitely. I can agree with that, and it really didn't need to, because all you need to do is look at the topic title to know what the original poster was getting at, but religion is a very highly debated topic, no matter where it stems from.
I wouldn't say so necessarily. The original poster is gone, and the subject has changed, but that's what happens, man. Degeneration is highly subjective.
Irony is very much alive though, as the poster who says everyone should stop replying has just posted again.
Do board topics ever truly die? I guess it depends who cares enough to bring them up again. Anyway, I digress yet again.
OK I get the gist of everyone's opinions on this.
I am a christian; don't go to church too much any more but I don't believe one has to attend church on a weekly basis to be a good christian.
Anyway, growing up, I had some sexual identity crisis' and I never once stopped being a christian or feeling the Lord reject me.
As Claire has said, homosexuality is not a choice; it's how one is born just like the colour of your hair/eyes.
Murdering someone however, is a choice and of course a sin.
I agree with Alicia aka sister dawn. Maybe you should speak to your pastor or your grandma they'll help you through. :)
Okay so being a Christian I've heard of a ministry called Exodus International that helps people to turn from the homosexual lifestyle. I'd reccommend checking that out. God bless,
Aimee
The website is
www.exodusinternational.org
Ok. thought I would come and say that I really appreciate everyones feedback. I have been going to christian counseling and see that I was never gay ha and that circumstances in my life sort of branewashed my mind in to thinking I was. to crazy musician and illumination you guys are so encouraging.
I'm glad to hear counseling has been working out for you. Smile. Be prepared to take a lot of crap for that last post of yours though. I wish you wouldn't get that, but I know you will.
I am in counseling for some things too. I do not have to have a Christian counselor, but I like it a lot better when I do. I'll admit, I haven't been following this board, but as I've told you before, if you ever want someone to talk with about faith stuff, feel free to chat with me. I'd like to help encourage you too, if you need it. Stay strong!
You know what makes me sad? this topic was started by an earnest person who wanted advise. While I don't mind people giving their opinion, look what has happened to this board!! Instead of advise, we have yet another spiritual debate, because some people can not just skip a board topic that says "For the christians". Why? Maybe you seek conflict? But the topic title was clear, wasn't it?
Maybe we should think about that. Let's hold our debates somewhere else and offer advise here to all who are earnestly seeking.
thank you.
Disagreement and debate is just a fact of life. that is all. If you don't like controversy, I would suggest not posting to these *discussion* boards at all.
Also, this topic has been long left in the dust. To the person who brought it up again, you must not mind this type of thing too much or you would have let it stay where it was.